Shōgun is one of the most compelling pieces of storytelling of the year. Emmy-nominated Aika Miyake and Maria Gonzales are two of the three editors behind the acclaimed series’ top-shelf storytelling. Gonzalez and Miyake both edited three episodes solo, but together, they crafted the satisfying season one finale, “A Dream Within A Dream.”
For the finale, their work is nominated for Outstanding Picture Editing For A Drama Series.
Neither editor knew exactly the scale of the story, based on James Clavell‘s novel, when they started. Once they got to work, though, they crafted a story both patient and wildly entertaining. Recently, Aika Miyake and Maria Gonzales spoke to Immersive about their work on Shōgun, including “A Dream Of A Deam.”
When you’re first seeing the dailies, what were your initial reactions and instincts for the show?
Maria Gonzales: You know, first it was like a big wow because I don’t think either of us really understood how big the show was going to be.
Aika Miyake: No one told me. No one told me.
Gonzales: We read the scripts, but we really didn’t know what budget range we were working in. So when the sets and the scope and the costumes, just when all of that we saw on screen, it was just kind of a big wow at first.
But then I think there was a lot of effort put into authenticity on the set, and that also involved a lot of mannerisms that are culturally appropriate but can’t really sustain in an episodic television.
So, one of the things that we were seeing aside from the grandiose sets and amazing costumes and phenomenal performances was also, things were taking a really long time. A lot of bowing, a lot of cultural mannerisms that were appropriate for the time that took a really long time for an episode. I think my [first] episode was close to two hours long. We were aware that some things we had to really deal with more strictly, I guess. We had to make some really difficult decisions on what to keep and not to keep.
Miyake: We also kind of realized, “Oh, Japanese takes so much longer than what English is trying to do.” So be mindful of having the context of Japanese lines and stuff, but also, how can we almost pace-up more so that people are more engaged and it doesn’t feel draggy? That was a lot of picking up the pace.
Also, understanding how much people are going to read the subtitles and how long it’s going to take for people to understand the context of the relationship. In the beginning, we really hone in on that and try to find a good pacing.
Gonzales: That’s right. This is so long ago now, but there were times at the very beginning when they were just rehearsing the first two episodes. I remember Jay, the director, calling. There’s a big ceremonial meeting room scene in the pilot where Toranaga first faces off with all the regents. I think that was timing out to twice as long as it was on the page simply because even the dialogue, the translation, was just so many more words. It took so much longer to say than to read in an English script. So, that was a surprise to all of us.
There are so many points of view you can cut to when you have scenes just packed with characters that could all literally be the star of the show. How was it handling point of views in scenes?
Gonzales: One of the challenges in that particular scene was we were also getting to know all these people for the first time. Sometimes we’re even cutting to people that you don’t really know who they are, but they need to already find placement within the episode, especially that scene. But you can’t really, really lose focus that the main sort of confrontation is between Toranaga and Ishido.
So you sort of stay focused on them, and they did have the most coverage. One of the cinematography styles that they were talking about even from the get-go was really staying close to the characters and being in their personal space, almost to maintain the audience’s perception of their own thought process in the whole thing.
So in that scene alone, the coverage that I had on Ishido and Toranaga was really spectacular. Every possible angle, from wides to extreme close-ups. There was a lot to play with. It was actually really fun finding the right pace, figuring out how we’re going to hone into some of those closer shots.
Miyake: I remember editing the first time the Toranaga meets Blackthorne in episode two. We start off normal, but the director got these shots a little bit like Mr. Robot-ish, like a little off-centered shots. I start to realize, “Oh, this shot’s a little bit uncomfortable, but I’m able to start to create more tension when I cut to them.” I intentionally started to bring a little bit more, a little bit more throughout the scene. And then right before the translation disappears and Toranaga and Blackthorne just engage to each other by themselves, bringing that energy and the tensions, it really helped to build that to that point.
Maria, that you used a lot more close-ups than you normally would on a show. As editors, what qualities were you both looking for to really maximize the intimacy between characters on the show?
Gonzales: Intimacy, there’s so many different ways that it comes across in the show, I believe. Sometimes it’s the close-ups on characters and really allowing for the audience to take in some of the expressions. We had very, very expressive actors, and we definitely wanted to take full advantage of that.
But I would argue that there were very intimate moments with maybe not even day players, but extras doing stuff, busywork around the village or the palace. Really, showcasing a lot of details about Japanese life, be it an upstairs-downstairs kind of thing. How things are done from the very mundane actions in the palace. I think Aika, you cut one of those Ishido scenes where he’s just sort of stamping some orders, to villagers cleaning their porches or cleaning fish heads or whatever, you know?
So I think there was a lot of opportunity for the audience to get a very intimate view on the life and style of the era that we were portraying. We were just tasked to make sure that all of it shines, that all of it is on display.
Miyake: I think this show really brings something about empty spaces. It’s the culture as well, the Japanese culture actually appreciates the emptiness in a lot of spaces, but also it’s the way it’s been shot and then written. As we edit, we realize a lot of the scene have a lot of dialogue. The dialogue drives the story and moves the narratives, but these empty spaces let us feel more intimate to their brain space and their experience. Also, allow the audience to connect to their experience or their thoughts more.
I really understood that early on and tried to create that balance of having a lot of dialogue, but at the same time, create a silent or quiet space. These scenes, a lot of scenes, of Toranaga sitting by the lake, became alive. I just really witnessed that and I was like, I got goosebumps.
How was it working with some of the digital spaces? Obviously, there’s a lot of the Pacific Northwest, but did you have many references from the VFX team to cut to?
Gonzales: Lots of conversations with [visual effects supervisor] Michael [Cliett], mostly because we didn’t really have a ton of previs. It was kind of a true collaboration between us and him and hearing what the DPs had in mind and really working out what we can make out of the footage that we got.
It took a lot of imagination in post-production to really see where some of these shots are going to go. A lot of discussions with him like, “Oh, what is your intention here? How long can I keep this shot, or how long should I keep this shot? What is the plan?” In episode one, there was that one flyover, when Blackthorne first pulls up on the ship in the Port of Osaka, and we sort of start on this dock where they’re grabbing him, taking him into the city, and then it’s just this long flyover to the castle.
That was a shot that was over Burnaby, Vancouver over a sleepy suburb that ends very quickly. So basically, it took a lot of imagination to see where this is going to go and how long do you really hang on something like this in the cut itself?
Miyake: The VFX, I was just amazed how much the British Columbia vegetation looks like Japan. That was something that surprised me, but also when you see it closely, we have a huge tree in the middle of the courtyard where they have a conversation in the Osaka castle. I think usually in these castle situations, they don’t have this huge tree. I mean, but actually I was kind of, “Oh, it doesn’t look like Japan,” but at the same time it’s the border of … “But it could happen,” you know? That was something that was interesting. But I remember, Michael was really, really intentional about these trees.
He would take it out in the VFX to make it work. He really, really helped to make it feel like real Japan. I was so appreciative of me being able to voice things in early on, like the extras thing as well. I look at it and I feel like this person isn’t doing the right thing or doesn’t fit the feel of the crowd. Things like that, I pointed out and Jamie Wheeler, the post producer, she passed it. I think after that, significantly got better. I was really, really appreciative of not only Michael helping to create this authentic Japanese experience, but also people on set. As busy as they are, they really listen to us and respond to what we see.
Maria, was it the pilot that ended up two hours?
Gonzales: Yeah, it was very close. It was definitely feature length. I think it was 109 minutes or something. Yeah, it was really, really long. I think we were really focused on making it a watchable hour of television. The way people responded to the show, it’s easy now to be like, “Oh, maybe people would’ve enjoyed a three-minute walk into the ceremonial meeting.”
I think there were really great things, but I think we also had to trim time. I mean, there were definitely scenes that we cut out. There were really beautiful scenes in all of the episodes, I have to say.
Any scenes in particular you both wanted to let breathe as long as possible, though?
Gonzales: I mean, I think 10 is a good example of this. I could cut a beautiful scene between-
Miyake: Blackthorne and Fuji. It’s at the Engawa, they meet for the first time in a long time and there’s an empty space for Mariko in the sitting area, and we just keep from the back shot, the wider they are sitting, and we just really see that Mariko was there, but not there anymore. That shot, I want it to stay.
Gonzales: I have another scene between Blackthorn and Fuji on the lake when they were getting rid of the remains. That was a much longer scene, and I always liked it. I liked it long, but it is something that got significantly cut down and I personally could have lived.
But I think between the two scenes, you have to. They had their moments and they had another scene together. So, you sort of have to be realistic about what can actually survive in a show, but yeah.
What were some of the darlings you killed along the way in post? Are there any scenes you miss from the show?
Miyake: So, 108 was another episode that was over 100 minutes in the initial cut. We did take some amazing scenes of Ochiba out, I think. Fumi Nikaido did an amazing job in these scenes. That was definitely killing the baby, as we say in the editorial world, moments for me that, “Ah, I understand,” but gut-wrenching sadness for sure.
Gonzales: You know, it’s really hard. I mean, there’s a reason a lot of these scenes don’t end up in the show. There was a tiny scene in episode one that we cut. There’s the scene in which one of Blackthorne’s men gets boiled alive. There’s actually a funeral scene for him, and Omi is there, and Muraji. It was just a tiny scene, but it was a very emotional scene and helped along with Omi’s character.
I mean, I think we conveyed a lot of it in the poem that he puts together later, his reactions to the actual act as it was happening. But again, it was just a beat that really gave full circle already in the first episode to Omi’s character, the depth of Omi’s character.
With the final episode, what was the final note and feeling you both wanted to end on? You had different options, right?
Miyake: Yeah, we had an option. One of the options was in the middle of the pen, there is a scene where Blackthorne meditate in the garden, Uejirou’s garden. That was one of the shot to end on before, but we realized that, that was right before Blackthorne goes to the final meeting with Toranaga. He wants to oppose what Toranaga is doing.
It’s really a moment that Blackthorne is mentally becoming Japanese, and we didn’t have anything that was a moment. That’s also another empty moment that we were looking for as well. We just really wanted to sit with Blackthorne and have him come to term with what he’s going to do.
So I think it was my idea, or the director Frederick Toye‘s idea. We were just like, “Why don’t we experiment bringing that shot in there?” And they worked really beautifully and that got stuck there. So, I was really happy that we could find that moment to bring that into his story.
Gonzales: It was sort of a pull-out over the garden. It was supposed to be one of the ending shots of the episode. Again, we would’ve ended on Blackthorne, but I think there’s something really nice also about bookending, the first and last episode ending on almost the same shot of Toranaga. It really is his show and he is our main character. It was the right call.
Looking back, what did you find most fulfilling about your experience on Shōgun?
Miyake: It’s everything. For me, as an editor who cut a lot of commercials and moved [here] from Japan back in 2019, it’s a dream come true for me. I really love telling the stories. And to be able to tell the story of my own culture, I’m unapologetically authentic. You know what I mean? It’s so cool. I’m ecstatic, just really, really happy that I could be part of it and enjoy every minute of it. I’m so proud of what we have done and came up and so happy to see people enjoying the story. It just really makes my day every time.
Gonzales: It’s just really immensely gratifying to have your work gain the recognition that this show has. I am obviously not Japanese and this is not a story about a culture that I grew up in, but it is a story that I was familiar with from an early age.
I do remember the original series and even scenes from the original series. Now, so many years later, I get to work on that show. It really is, in a way, a full circle moment as well. For me, a lot of times these experiences are really about the friendships that are built on the crews.
Aika and I worked together for a year and a half. Thomas [Krueger] was there as well, the third editor. We had so many people on our crew, our assistants who were an immense help. I could not have done it without them. So, a lot of times on these shows, what I take away are those human connections that are made.
Shōgun is available to stream on Hulu.
